中文翻译 | 英文 |
江泽民： | 时光荏苒。 | Jiang: | Time flies very fast. |
华莱士： | 是啊。 | Wallace: | Yeah. |
江： | 与君初会，在昔八六。 | J: | We met for the first time in 1986. |
华： | 你和我么？ | W: | You and I? |
江： | 乃寡人适任两江总督之时也。 | J: | That’s right. When I was mayor of Shanghai. |
华： | 没错。我记得是在一个露天的房间里。 | W: | That’s right. It was a room out of doors… |
江： | 诚为户外，居于黄浦江之上。 | J: | Out of doors, near the Huangpu River. |
华： | 没错。 | W: | Exactly. |
江： | 今日与君重逢，实乃幸之甚矣。 | J: | And…I’m very happy to meet you again today. |
华： | 我也很高兴见到您，非常感谢您努力促成了此次采访。 | W: | And you, I thank you very much for granting this interview. |
江： | 朕欲假子之节目致君等美夷，广播吾天朝怀柔之美意。 | J: | I hope to convey through your program my best wishes to American people, and you. |
华： | 也包括您的老朋友克林顿总统？还有您的新朋友乔治布什？ | W: | And your friend President Clinton? And your friend George Bush? |
江： | 善哉！花旗国人无所不包，此乃花旗之友，朕交甚广之故也。 | J: | That’s right. Of course, including everybody, because, I have many, many friends in America. |
华： | 我明白了。 | W: | I understand. |
江： | 众高朋也！ | J: | All friends! |
华： | 我明白了。 | W: | I understand. |
华： | 啊，主席先生。您在一把手位置上坐了得有十几年了吧。在当时被广泛认为是个过渡性的角色。大家都觉得您不会真正成为一把手，你只会花费几年时间之力这个国家，然后一些更加果断、更加强硬的人就会顶替您的位置。但是您击败了哪些怀疑者，执掌政权至今。您觉得是什么原因使您被小看了呢？ | W: | Ah, you know Mr. President. You took over a little more than 10 years ago, right? Widely perceived to be a transitional figure. You were not going to be no.1, you were going to spend a few years, running the country, and then somebody more decisive and somebody stronger and therefore who’s going to take you over. But you confounded the sceptics. You took charge and you still very much in charge. Why do you believe that perhaps you were underestimated? |
江： | 古今中外大多数政治家都是逐步走向高层的。我曾任上海市长，接着又兼任了上海市委书记。事实上，我根本没想过自己会被调到北京的中央委员会工作，但最终我还是被选中了。邓小平和其他老一辈的领导集体希望我成为中国共产党的总书记，我实在是没有料到。然而毕竟我已经在这个位置上坐了11年了，我坚定不移的信仰一直告诉我必须尽最大的努力去为我的祖国服务。或许是因为我刻苦勤奋，所以我现在还能坐稳这个位子。 | J: | Many statesmen in the world had moved up gradually, I was the mayor, and then the Party Secretary in Shanghai. In fact, I did not think I would be transferred to the Central Committee here in Beijing. But finally I was the man who selected. Deng Xiaoping and other leaders of the old generation want me to become General Secretary of Communist Party. I did not expect this. However I’ve been in this position for 11 years, and I always held the conviction that I need to do my very best to serve my country and my motherland. And may be it is because my hard work and my diligence that I still have the job. |
华： | 短一点，美国的规矩你懂的，请更精简一点。 | W: | The, the shorter answers, you know the United States, shorter answers, please. More concise. |
江： | 我的回答明明跟你提问的长度差不多啊。 | J: | But I think my answer is roughly the same length as your question. |
华： | 我知道，您说得没错。 | W: | I know it, that’s absolutely ture. |
江： | 如果你的问题也能精简一点的话，我的回答也会精简一点的。 | J: | If you give concise and brief questions, I’ll give you brief answers. |
华： | 我听说您被形容为“绵里藏针”，这会不会是您成功的另外一个原因呢？这个成语又是什么意思呢？ | W: | You are called, I sound, “the silk wrapped needle”, is that one question for your success? And what does it mean? |
江： | 人们也用这个成语来形容邓小平的性格。我不敢和他相比。但是我可以讲一句，我这个人的性格还是比较果断的，这是肯定的。 | J: | People use the same phrase to describe the character of Deng Xiaoping, I don’t think I should be put on the power of Deng. But one thing of myself is that, fore sure is that I’m a decisive fighre. |
华： | 不过这也意味着，您是强硬派，像一支针。 | W: | But That also would seem to mean, you are a tough fighre. A needle. |
江： | 事实上，“绵里藏针”在中文里是个很高的评价，所以我还是觉得我应该谦虚一点比较好。 | J: | In fact, “a needle wrapped in silk” is a very high compliment in Chinese, so I think I should be more modest. |
华： | 请用几句话来描述一下当今的中美关系，主席先生？ | W: | Outside we’ve talk about relations about the United States and China. In a few words, how would you characterize the state of relations between China and the United States today, Mr President? |
江： | 我认为中美关系关系总体来说是好的，但我也会用人们形容天气的话来形容中美关系：我们之间的关系经历了风风雨雨有时多云，有时甚至乌云密布。但是，有时也会雨过天晴。大家都有一种良好的愿望使得我们两国的关系向一种建设性的战略伙伴关系前进。 | J: | On the whole, the relations between China and the United States are good. However, I would like to use words people used to describe nature to describe the state of China-US relations. Our relations have experienced wind, rain and sometimes cloud or even dark clouds or even dark clouds. However sometimes it clears up. We all sincerely hope to build a constructive partnership between China and the United States. |
华： | 您刚才的辞令政客腔十足，毫无诚意可言。最近你们的一份官方报纸《中国日报》将美国称为“世界和平的威胁”。您也这么认为，认为美国对世界和平构成威胁了吗？ | W: | That’s spoken like a real politician. There’s no candor in it. In a recent headline in your government or one of your government newspapers China Daily, the paper called the US “a threat to world peace”. You feel that way that the United States is a threat to world peace? |
江： | 我觉得“政客”这个词不怎么好听。 | J: | I don’t think “politician” is a very nice word. |
华： | 不，这不是溢美之词，这，在这里这只是个婉转说法。 | W: | No, it’s not a nice word, it’s,it’s a, it’s a diplomatic word in this case. |
江： | “政治家”怎么样？ | J: | “Stateman”? |
华： | 换言之，您到底认不认为美国对世界和平造成威胁？如果是的话，那我们在哪些方面威胁了世界和平？这是防长威廉科恩访华时的报道。 | W: | In other words, look, either you believe that United States is a threat to world peace, or you do not? Which is that? And if so, in what way are we threat to world peace? That was the headline when Defense Secretary William Cohen came here to China. |
江： | 应该这么说…..我在美国有很多的朋友，民主党和共和党都有不少。每次与他们会晤的时候，我们都带着极大的诚意与友好来深入交换意见。所以坦白说，或许是因为美国享有强大的经济和科技力量，使得它不由自主地高估自身实力以及它在世界上的地位。今天我想向美国人民传达一个友好的信息，但我还是想说，在美国的领导观念之中还是盛行着一种霸权主义之风。 | J: | I have a lot of friends in the United States, both Democrats and Republicans. And every time I have meeting with them, we exchange views and great candor and great frankness. So candidly speaking, maybe it is because of the strong economic power and leading edge in science and technology that the United States enjoys, that more often than not it tends to overestimate itself and its position in the world. Today I want to convey a friendly message to the American people. But I do want to say there may be a certain touch of hegemonism in the leadership of the United States. |
华： | 那份报纸好像还说美国“穷兵黩武”，这是它说的，“穷兵黩武”。 | W: | That seem newspaper said that United States is “power man”, I quote, “power man”. |
江： | 我今天与你交谈，我很希望给美国人民一个信息，促进我们中美两国人民相互之间的友谊与了解。所以，如果可以的话，我不喜欢用太多的很严厉的字眼来进行交谈。刚才我讲得很清楚，你们经济那么发达，你们的科学技术力量那么发达，所以你们有一种比较高的优势地位，往往表现的态度可能不能够对其他的所有的国家采取一种非常平等的地位。 | J: | Well, as I said to you earlier, I hope that our talk today, I would be able to convey a message of friendship and mutual understanding between the Chinese and the American people. So if you permit, I would like to refrain from using too much tough words in our conversation. I think that I’ve made myself very clear, when I said the United states enjoyed a developed economy, and also a leading edge in science and technology. This has put you in a rather advantage position. And very often makes you feel more equal than the rest of the world. |
华： | 您的意思是我们看不起中国？我们在亚洲太突出了吗？ | W: | You mean we look down on China? We are too prominent in Asia? |
江： | 我也不是单单说你们单纯的针对中国，中国是一个有五千年历史文化的国家，而且我们有12亿多人口，中国已经通过这20多年的改革开放，有了相当的经济基础，所以恐怕你们还不太敢小看中国。 | J: | Well, I’m not talking about the United States’ attitude towards China in particular. China is a country with 5,000 years of history, and also more than 1,200,000,000 people. We have accumulated a significant economic foundation over the past 20 years of the reform and opening-up. So I’m afraid the United States simply cannot afford to look down on China. |
华： | 我明白了。请允许我问一句，您年轻时学英语的时候，是不是学习过托马斯杰弗逊和亚伯拉罕林肯的演说？ | W: | Understood. Let me, if I may, you studied the speeches of Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln as a youngster when you were learning English? |
江： | 也不是很小的时候，其实是我中学时学的。后来我在上海的夜校做老师时，我曾经选过林肯的葛底斯堡演说这门课。你可能会希望我引用演说中的一些片段。 | J: | In fact I was in middle school. And later, when I was a teacher in the night school in Shanghai, I also selected Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address as a part of my course. And you maybe want me to quote some lines from that speech. |
华： | 我很期待。 | W: | I do indeed. |
江： | “先人立国已逾八十有七载。立国以自由，众生平等乃国本也。” | J: | “Four score and seven years ago, our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.” |
华： | 为什么，为什么你熟背这一段？ | W: | Why, why did you learn that by heart? |
江： | 我就说我对“众生平等”这句话很感兴趣，因为这句话在我年轻上中学的时候，对一些学生有过很深的影响。而且我认为演说中亚拉伯罕林肯所描述的理想仍然是现今美国领导人所努力的目标。特别是最后一段：“民有、民治、民享之政必永续于世。” | J: | I’m particularly interested in the phrase, “all men are created equal“. Because this has a great influence on some of students when I was young in the middle school. And I think what Abraham Lincoln described in the article still remains the goal of American leaders today. Especially the last paragraph: “The government of the people, by the people and of the people, never perish from the earth.” |
华： | 亚伯拉罕林肯是由人民选出来的，不是吗？ | W: | And Abraham Lincoln was elected by the people, correct? |
江： | 对啊。 | J: | That’s right. |
华： | 那为什么美国人民能自己选举出他们的国家领导人，而你们显然不相信中国人民有能力选出你们自己的国家领导人，为什么？ | W: | Why is that Americans can elect their national leaders, but you apparently don’t trust the Chinese people to elect your national leaders? Why? |
江： | 我想告诉你，我相信我也是被选出来的领导人，尽管我们的选举制度不同。中美在这个问题上唯一的不同就是我们采用了不同的选举制度，因为我们有自己的历史传统、文化水平、经济发展水平和社会发展水平等等，所以我认为每个国家的选举制度要根据它自己的情况确定。 | J: | I want to tell you that I also believe that I’m an elected leader, although we use different ways of election. The only difference between China and the United States on this specific question is the different system of election we use in our two countries, because China has its own historical tradition, its own level of education and economic development and social development and so on. So I think each country should have its own individual system of election. |
华： | 那是自然，但我还是不明白，为什么你们要搞一党专政？如果中国有两个或者三个党会怎样，到底会怎样？或者这样是否可行，像美国一样，让几个党相互竞争，以代表大多数国民，来让国家更加美好？ | W: | Of course. But I don’t understand still why you have a one-party state. What would happen, what would happen in China, if there were 2 or 3 parties? Isn’t it conceivable, as the United States, the competition between the parties to represent the majority of the people in their country make for a better country? |
江： | 因为我就是说有反对党又有什么用呢？这说明你没有很好地读中国的历史。美国总认为整个世界都应该按照美国这种政治制度去行事，这是非常不够明智的。 | J: | Why is there necessary to have opposition parties? It shows you don’t understand Chinese history. America thinks the whole world should adopt American values and American political system, I don’t think that is wise. |
华： | 这可不只是美国，英国如此，德国法国也如此……我想说的是全世界都采用了这种制度。你已经是世界上最后一位大独裁者，世界上最后一个共产党大独裁政权了。 | W: | It’s not the American, it is the British, it is the Germen, it is the French, it is… I mean it’s all over the world. You are the last major dictatorship, the last major Communist dictatorship in the world. |
江： | 你说我是独裁者？ | J: | You mean I’m dictatorship? |
华： | 没错，你们一种发展中的独裁，我们是这么看的，难道我说错了吗？ | W: | Well, of course, a developmental dictatorship is what, is what we believe it is. Am I wrong? |
江： | 当然错了，错得很离谱。 | J: | Of course. This is a big mistake. |
华： | 错得很离谱？ | W: | Big mistake? |
江： | 当然了，看来你还没有看透中国的本质。 | J: | Of course. It shows you do not know China that well. |
华： | 噢，我确实不了解中国。我在这没待多久。 | W: | Oh, I don’t know China that well, I’ve been here, haven’t dozens of times. |
江： | 我想问你一个问题，你说的独裁是什么意思？ | J: | Would you please tell me what means dictatorship? |
华： | 独裁？当你们限制新闻自由的时候就是了。在这里根本没有新闻自由，完全看不到。 | W: | Dictatorship? When you don’t have the freedom of the press, and there’s no freedom of the press here, there’s not. That’s a perfect example. |
江： | 你的意思是在中国，没有新闻自由。 | J: | You mean in China, there’s not. |
华： | 对，在中国这里。我们明白公民自由与新闻自由之间的关联，您曾经讲过新闻应该是党的喉舌，您又说过，和毛泽东一样，说要坚持政治家办报。你们为什么这么怕新闻自由？ | W: | Here, here, in China, yes. We see a connection between freedom of the people, and freedom of the press. You’ve said the press should be the mouthpiece of the party. You’ve also said, as Mao Tsetung did, newspaper must be run by politicians. What do you fear from free press? |
江： | 我想不管哪个国家哪个党派，都应该拥有它自己的新闻机构宣传它们的主张。正如我前面所说的，中国的政治制度时由中国共产党领导的多党合作制度。而且我们确实拥有新闻自由。我们所有的全国的各种电视台大概有两千多家，而且地方报纸有两千多种、我们的杂志有八千多种、我们每年也会出版超过十万多种新书。即使是毛泽东，他当年也主张过文艺工作要“百花齐放，百家争鸣”。 | J: | I think for every individual country or any individual party, they always have their own publications to promote their own ideology. As I explain to you, the Chinese system is multi-party system led by the Communist Party. And we do have the freedom of the press. We have over 2,000 TV stations in the country. We have more than 2,000 local newspapers and more than 8,000 magazines. We publish more than 100,000 new books each year. Even Mao tsetung advocated the policy of allowing “one hundred different flowers to bloom, and one hundred different sores of schools of thought” contend in the field of art literature. |
华： | 百花齐放？ | W: | Let a hundred flowers bloom? |
江： | 对啊。 | J: | That’s right. |
华： | 想想就很可怕。 | W: | And that was a disaster. |
江： | 当然，但是这个方针是正确的。直到今天我们还是推行这个方针的。 | J: | But the direction was right, even today, we still pursue the same direction. |
华： | 嗯，四年前，主席您去了《人民日报》报社，算是真正的报社了，您对他们说过，即使是一篇文章，哪怕一句话讲错了都可能会导致政局不稳。新闻什么时候变得这么厉害了？似乎你们的一党专政制度面对新闻自由会变得岌岌可危。 | W: | Well, look, 4 years ago, president. You went to People’s Daily, which is the real paper there,and you said the following, you said, just one article, one erroneous remark or one mistake of the press may lead to political instability. Is the press that powerful? That makes, that makes you one-party rule seem remarkably precarious. |
江： | 四年前我去过人民日报社参观这点你说的没错，但是好像我的原话并不一定是这样讲的。我只是说明这么一个问题，就是这么大一个国家，我们有12亿多人，新闻的对国家的导向确实是很重要的。你不能用美国的价值观来对中国的现状做评判，因为你们在经济、国民教育水平上高度发达，你更不能把美国模式强加于中国。不管中国媒体还是外国媒体，我都认为有一点很重要，那就是不能歪曲事实，即便他们自己由发表言论的自由。这对中国媒体很重要，特别是我们的《人民日报》，我们的老百姓非常重视。如果它把某一个事实报道错误了，人们会信以为真。我们不像你们那儿，你们想报道什么就报道什么，就算你们的报道出了什么错也无所谓，不会有很严重的后果。比方说，我现在正在北戴河这儿跟你交谈，但是我已经看到了一些外国报纸说我已经到了大连了。如果是真的话，那我现在怎么可能坐在这里跟你聊天？我再告诉你另一件事。几个月前，我看到一则消息说“江泽民访问厦门，突遭炸弹爆炸重伤送院”，但那时候我还在北京。 | J: | You were right in saying that I did make a visit in people’s daily back 4 years ago, but I’m afraid I never put things that way. So there may be a certain distortion about what I really said. What I want to explain to you is that we are such a big country with the population of over 1,200,000,000, that direction on media tries to lead our country toward is important. You cannot possibly try to use the American values to make judgements about China, because you are highly developed in you economy, and your level of education. You cannot possibly try to make China to same as the United States. I think for both Chinese media and the foreign media, one thing is very important. They should never distort the fact, though they are free to their on opinion. This is very important for the Chinese media, particularly the People’s Daily, because it is the major newspaper for the Chinese people. If there’s a mistake in the newspaper, people will believe what they read. The situation is different from yours, you can report ant any story anyway you want. Even if you make mistakes in your newspaper, it won’t make serious consequences. For example, I’m here right now, talking to you, in Beidaihe. I’ve read some foreign papers that say I’m in Dalian right now. If there reports were ture, how could I possibly be sitting here talking to you? And I will tell you another thing. A few month ago, I read a piece of news from the Internet saying, that was Jiang Zemin was visiting the army in Xiamen, there was a very serious explosion, and Jiang Zemin was severely hurt in hospital rest, However, at that time, I was in Beijing. |
华： | 嗯，您说的肯定没错，我们还有你们的媒体都犯过错什么的。不过，既然我们谈到了独裁，啊，我现在居然居然指着堂堂中国国家主席，我希望你不要把我分配到…… | W: | Look, you’re absolutely right. There’re mistakes made in your press, in our press and so forth. But when we talk about dictatorship, I’m, I’m riding my finger at the President of China. I hope you’ll not send me off to… urr… |
江： | 你们和我们的媒体都犯过错，不过我们的影响更大。 | J: | Your press and our press both made mistakes, but the influence is greater. |
华： | 啊，我们只有2.5亿人口，只不过是中国的五分之一。我也努力理解您肩负着13亿人的民生大计，或者说世界上五分之一人的命脉，那很不得了。您，您难道从来没有私下对自己说过，说，江泽民，我统治者站地球总人口五分之一，这么大一个国家。 | W: | Well, we are a quarter of billion, only about one-fifth the population of China. And I want to get to the business about you’re running the lives of 1,300,000,000 people, one out of every five people on earth. That’s astonished. Do you, do you never say to yourself at home, you’ll say Jiang Zemin, I, I am the chief of one out of every five people on earth. |
江： | 我们就来谈谈中国的人口问题。我们大概每一天有5万多新的婴儿出生，一年近2000万人，而且这是在严格的计划生育的条件下还有这么大的增长率。所以正如你所说，我确实经常考虑怎么使得我们12亿多人生活得幸福，水平不断地提高，很难呐。 | J: | Let me say about the Chinese population. Everyday 52.000 babies are born in our country. This will add up to 20,000,000 a year. And this significant growth of our population has been seen under very strict family planning policy. So I often ask myself, how to ensure a happy life in constantly improve living standards for the 1,200,000,000 Chinese people. This is indeed, a very tough job. |
华： | 载谈话一开始，在你们中国人习惯称作“房间”的地方，邓小平对您讲过，“我希望你成为下一任领导班子的核心，我希望你成为大当家”，您当时只是很前辈谨慎地说：“我觉得如履薄冰”，很明显您并不是在害怕，但您当时肯定已经有所准备，是在考虑自己是否做好了挑起这副担子的准备？ | W: | At the very beginning of your, room if you want to call it they way, here in China, when Deng Xiaoping said to you, “I want you to be at the core, I want you to be the man who leads”. You are quotative heavily said, “I feel as low I am on thin ice”, not that you were afraid, but surly you must have ready, you were ready, you were ready to take on your responsibility. |
江： | 今天我可以给你坦率地讲，我从上海市委书记，上海的No.1，到北京来的，我丝毫没有这个准备来当全中国的领导人，我是希望能够考虑比我更能干更合适的人。最后，我们的邓小平等老一辈的领导人认为我是合适的，同时我是经过中央委员会的正式选举产生的。最后，我只能是“鞠躬尽瘁，死而后已”了。 | J: | Let me be very frank with you, before coming to Beijing, I was the No.1 in Shanghai, the Party Secretary. I had no intention of leading the whole country here, and I hope that more capable candidate will take the job. But Deng Xiaoping and other leaders from the old generation believe I was the appropriate candidate. So I was selected to be the General Secretary of the Communist Party. Now I can only “devote myself to do anything I can to serve the country and my people until the last minute of my life”. |
华： | 那是自然，不过，不过……您从来没在中国军队例服过兵役吧？说对了。那可是您重要的职责之一，您是国家军委主席。 | W: | Of course, but, but, you’ve never served in the army forces of China, right? Correct. One of the most important parts of your job, you are the chairman of the state commission of military, right? |
江： | 中央军委。 | J: | Military committee. |
华： | 中央军委？让一个从来没服过兵役的人当领导，像比尔克林顿一样？您对军队非常苛刻，不是吗？ | W: | Military committee? A man who’s never served in the army forces, like Bill Clinton. You have been tough on the army, Haven’t you? |
江： | 正如你说的，我确实没在军队里服过役，因为我是一名知识分子。 | J: | You were right. I’ve never served in the army in the military because I am an intellectual. |
华： | 在美国，知识分子也要服兵役的，总统先生。 | W: | In the United States, an intellectual serves in the army, Mr. President. |
江： | 是的，你说的没错，现在为止我已经做了将近11年的中央军委主席了。我自认为对军队有着十足的把握。作为主席，我用不着亲自去打枪或者开飞机，我的职责是做好战略决策。 | J: | That’s ture. I haven’t said that though. I have served as chairman of the central military commission for 11 years. I think I have the confidence of the army. As chairman, I don’t personally need to fire a gun or fly a airplane. My responsibility is to make strategic decisions. |
华： | 不过您做了一个相当重要的决定。军队以前是可以经商的。 | W: | But you’ve made a very serious decision. The army, the army forces used to be in business. |
江： | 噢，这是我做的决定。 | J: | Oh, this is my decision. |
华： | 我知道，这是两年前的事了。两年以前，您对军队说：“你们不是商人，军队一律不得经商！”，为什么？ | W: | I know it, 2 years ago. 2 years ago, you said to the army, “out of business, you are the army! You are not business people!” Why? |
江： | 我认为部队经商是一个腐蚀剂。因为历史经验已经告诉我们，任何一个国家如果军队经商以后，没有一个不腐败的，最后必然是涣散了军心。 | J: | I think the army is allowed to do business and that would erode our army. Because history has told us that any army that is allowed to engage in business eventually becomes corrupted and that would destroy the marrow and the flighting will of the army. |
华： | 您提到了腐败这个问题。天安门过后一个月，这个小插曲过后一个月，您写了一篇演说，里面说：“腐败已经在党内根深蒂固，无处不在，罪孽深重。如果我们所有的党政机关都利用他们手中的权力谋取物质利益，这与光天化日之下攫取人民又有什么区别？” 那些在天安门的学生也在激烈地反对您说提到的腐败问题，因此显然他们对您和你们的党会有一些影响。 | W: | You raise the subject of corruption. One month after Tiananmen, one month after that episode, you wrote a speech. And in it, you said, “corruption is growing in the soil, in the air, in lots of crimes. If all our party and our government organs use their power to seek material benefits. Isn’t this just like fleecing the people in broad daylight?” Those students in Tiananmen had also been protesting against the corruption that you talked about. So apparently they did have some effect on you and on your Party. |
江： | 我认为腐败是个历史问题，古今中外，概莫能外。但我们一直坚决地反对腐败。我国已经出了好几桩严重的腐败案件。我个人非常痛恨腐败，但我不认为这个问题能在一夜之间解决。为了逐步根除腐败，我们需要依靠法治的办法，用舆论的办法、教育的办法逐步地把它解决。89年风波期间的确有学生高呼反对腐败的口号，所以在这个特定的问题上，我们党和青年学生是站在同一战线上的。但事实上还有一小撮别有用心的人，企图利用学生的热情，妄图推翻中国共产党的领导并颠覆人民民主专政权。我们不能允许这种事情发生。我们要采取坚决的措施，否则我们就会失去努力维系至今的稳定，这无论对中国还是对世界都没好处。 | J: | I think corruption is a historical phenomenon, in that it happened in different countries in the ancient times, and it still happens in different countries today. We have been fighting resolutely against corruption. There’ve been very serious corruption cases in our country. I hate corruption very much, but I don’t think the problem can be solved overnight. And in order to gradually eradicate the problem, we need to depend on our legal system, on our media, and also on improved education. You were right that during the disturbance of 89, some students were chanting slogans against corruption, so the specific point, the Party shares the same position with the students. But the fact is that there’re some people with ulterior motives who are trying to use the enthusiasm of the students to overthrow the leadership of the Chinese Communist Party and overthrow the socialist government, this will never be allowed. So we have to take resolute measures. And had we not done so, we would not have the national stability we have today, a stability that benefits China and the rest of the world. |
华： | 您以前在上海也是一名抗议学生。 | W: | You were a student protestor, in Shanghai. |
江： | 在上海，没错。 | J: | In Shanghai, that’s right. |
华： | 在国民党时代，高呼“我们要自由，我们要民主！”的是您没错吧。 | W: | At the time of the Nationalist, we want freedom, we want democracy, that was you. |
江： | 没错。 | J: | That’s right. |
华： | 而这恰恰也是那些在天安门广场上的人们所呼喊的“我们要自由，我们要民主！”，不是吗？ | W: | And that was those folks, that was those people in Tiananmen Square were saying, “we want freedom, we want democracy”. |
江： | 我最初参加学生运动实在中国抗日战争期间，而在二战结束后，我们又开始反抗国民党政权，这是因为在那之前，这个国家根本没有自由民主可言。但自从中华人民共和国成立以来，我们就一直在为努力推动国家的民主化而奋斗。即便是在我所说的1989年的动乱期间，我们仍然能够理解学生呼吁更加民主与自由的爱国热情。而事实上，我们知道今天也在不懈地为推动我们的民主体制而努力工作。但关键在于，我们是绝无可能容许那些别有用心的人利用学生运动来颠覆政府的。 | J: | I first joined the student movement against the Japanese military in China. And after World War II, we were against the Nationalist regime. Because back then, there was no freedom and democracy in the country. But ever sincr the People’s Republic of China was founded, we’ve always been working to further promote the democracy in our country. Even in the 1989 disturbance as I told you before, we could understand the passions of students who are calling for greater democracy and freedom. And we in fact, have always been working constantly up to today to improve our system of democracy. And the crux of the matter was that we could not possibly allow those people with ulterior motives to use student movement to overthrow the government. |
华： | 再问一个关于独裁的问题。 | W: | One more question about,… dictatorship. |
江： | 但说无妨。 | J: | That’s right. |
华： | 您封锁了互联网，您封掉了一些网站，在中国这里，BBC，华盛顿邮报，为什么？为什么要封掉这些网站？你们那么担心人们会从网上看到并且了解到什么信息吗？ | W: | You bring uo the Internet. You have blocked Internet sites, here in China. The BBC, the Washington Post, why? Why block an Internet site? You don’t trust the people, somehow to be able to pick stuff up off the Internet and learn? |
江： | 关于这个问题实际上刚才我对你谈新闻自由时已经谈过了，我们希望通过互联网获得很多有用的信息，但是有时互联网上也有许多不健康的东西，特别是色情内容，对我们的青年一代是十分有害的。 | J: | Well, about the internet, I think we discuss this issue before when we were talking about freedom of the press. We hope that we could learn a lot of useful things and useful information from the Internet, however, sometimes there’s also unhealthy stuff especially pornography on the Internet, which does great harm to our youngsters. |
华： | 但是这些玩意儿BBC和华盛顿邮报的网站上并没有。 | W: | Not from BBC, and not from the Washington Post. |
江： | 像你刚才提到BBC啊，华盛顿邮报啊，他们被封锁是因为一些政治新闻，这一点我们要有选择性，正如美国同样有选择性。一句话，是希望从因特网中接收有益于中国发展的信息，不管是文化的、经济的，各方面的。但是我们希望尽可能地限制一些不利于我们的。 | J: | As for example you’ve given, such as BBC and the others, they might be banned because of some of their political news reports. We need to be selective. We hope to restrict as much as possible information not conducive to China’s development. |
华： | 新的话题，您可能不太愿意谈及：人权问题。您迫害了一些基督徒。您还迫害了一个叫法轮功的东西。到底是为了什么，有什么理由，对这种精神层面的事业，就我的理解而言，我还在纽约偶遇了那个人，那男的名字叫李什么来着…… | W: | New subject, one you’re not going to want to talk about: Human rights. You persecute Christians. You persecute something called Falun Gong. What in the world, for what reason, this spiritual undertaking, according to my understanding, and I had met the man in New York. The man whose name is Li… |
江： | 李洪志。 | J: | Li Hongzhi. |
华： | 李，李洪志？我跟他碰面了。 | W: | Li, Li Hongzhi? I met him. |
江： | 你跟他碰面了？ | J: | You met him? |
华： | 对啊，我坐下来跟他谈了，就像这样。他们锻炼身体，他们相信某种超然的精神状态，究竟是为了什么让您如此焦虑，以至于要去拷打、逮捕、杀害他们呢，到底为什么？ | W: | Yes, I sat down with him like this, like this.And they do exercises, they believe in a certain spiritual life. What is it that worries you so about Falun Gong that you torture, arrest, kill, etc. What is it? |
江： | 首先我想问问你，你也信法轮功么？ | J: | At first I would like to ask you that you also trust Falun Gong? |
华： | 信？我对他们一无所知好吗。 | W: | Trust them? I don’t know enough about them. |
江： | 我来告诉你。李洪志自称是释迦牟尼转世的转世，还是基督徒耶稣的化身，你信吗？他说地球末日就要来临，地球快要爆炸了。他还声称，我和李鹏总理致电给他请求他把地球爆炸的日期延后几十年。但我们从来就没有向他请求过。我想说的是他就是企图通过这些宣传来获得信徒的信任，他希望给人留下一种“他跟中国领导人很熟”的印象，其实他在胡说八道。事实上，由于他的传教，许多家庭破裂，许多人也因此丧命。因此经过谨慎的考虑，我们认为法轮功是邪教。 | J: | I’ll tell you. Li Hongzhi claims to be the reincarnation of the chief Buddha, and also a reincarnated Jesus Christ. Do you believe that? He said that doomsday was about to come and he also said the earth was going to explode. He also claims that I and Mr. Li Peng former Premier, used to call him on the telephone, asking him to delay the date of the explosion of the earth maybe of several decades. But we’ve never talked to him. Well, I make all his claims he wants to achieve nothing but people’s trust, people’s belief in him. He wants to create the impression that he knows the Chinese leaders very well. In fect, what he says are misleading words. In fact, as a result of his preaching, many families were broken and many lives were lost. So after careful deliberations we drew the conclusion that Falun Gong is a cult. |
华： | 听着。你们迫害了基督徒，这众所周知。你们又迫害了法轮功。很难，很难理解为什么向中国这样的大国会因为信仰去迫害自己的人民。 | W: | Look, you have persecuted Christians. It’s well known. You have persecuted Falun Gong. It’s difficult, it is difficult to understand why a big power like China would want to persecute people because of their religion. |
江： | 我想澄清一点。刚才你混淆了两个概念：基督教和法轮功。在中国宪法保护下中国人民有宗教信仰自由，这同样包括了对于基督教的信仰。但是法轮功是邪教，它和基督教不一样。我还是大学生的时候，有时也会参加平安夜晚会。 | J: | One Thing we have to make clear. Just mow, you mixed up two things: Christianity and Falun Gong. Under China’s constitution that Chinese people have the freedom of religious belief, including the freedom to believe in Christianity. But Falun Gong is a cult. It is totally different from Christianity. When I was a college student, I sometimes attended Christmas Eve Party. |
华： | 但是您这就是在承认中国基督徒确实被共产党迫害了，不是吗？ | W: | But you will acknowledge then that the Christians have been persecuted by the Communist Party in China, yes? No? |
江： | 不是。我要加一个说明，就是基督徒也不能违反中国的法律。 | J: | No. But like anyone else, Christians should not break Chinese laws. |
华： | 我们来说另外一个话题吧。您听说过李文和这个名字吗？您认识这个人吗？ | W: | Move to something else. You know the name of Dr. Wen Ho Lee? Do you Know the man? |
江： | 知道。著名科学家。 | J: | I know, famous scientist. |
华： | 著名科学家，中国人。 | W: | Famous scientist, Chinese. |
江： | 中国人？是海外华人。 | J: | Chinese? Overseas Chinese. |
华： | 嗯？ | W: | Hmm? |
江： | 海外华人。 | J: | Overseas Chinese. |
华： | 噢，是海外华人，他在1964年来到美国，工作一路高升，最后还进了洛斯阿拉莫斯国家实验室。最后有一天发现他是一名间谍，一名专门为您服务的间谍，是这样吗？ | W: | Oh, overseas Chinese. He went to the United States in 1964 and had a wonderful career, and went to Los Alamos National Laboratory, and suddenly they decided that he was a spy, conceivably for you. Was he? |
江： | 我可以坦率地告诉你，中国与李文和一案之间没有丝毫的瓜葛。我们只知道李文和是位著名的科学家。 | J: | I can tell you frankly, China was not in any way involved in Wen Ho Lee’s case. We only know about Wen Ho Lee is a renowned scientist. |
华： | 到你们中国和你们的科学家深入交流的著名科学家？ | W: | Who came here to Chine and talked to your Scientists? |
江： | 他不来呢？他访问中国，和中国的科学家交流是件很正常的事情，就和一些中国科学家出国公干没有区别。嘛，我这并不是在为李文和辩护，他自己可以为自己辩护。不过请允许我引用一句中国的谚语，“欲加之罪，何患无辞”。我们不清楚这背后的政治意图是什么。我可以给你举个例子，几句为王的科学家，爱因斯坦，他创立了相对论。 | J: | If he not? This is just natural for him to come and visit us and to talk with the Chinese scientists. Just as normal as some Chinese scientists to also travel abroad. Well, I’m by no means trying to defend Wen Ho Lee, he can defend himself. However, allow me quote a Chinese proverb which says that “if you are out to condemn someone, you can always trump up a charge”. We don’t know what political motives are behind it. I’ll tell you an example. The very famous scientist, Einstein. He invented the theory of Relativity. |
华： | 对。 | W: | Right. |
江： | 嗯，分别在1905年和1916年。在20世纪，如果没有量子力学，没有相对论，那就不会有什么原子弹。但是爱因斯坦，我可以很肯定地说，爱因斯坦他并不希望他的理论被用来制造炸弹，你懂的。所以我认为，把科学家之间的交流视为政治问题并不妥当，除非有人想借此获取什么政治利益。直到今天，中国人民还是认为李文和是位德艺双馨的科学家。 | J: | That’s right. In 1905 and 1916. In 20 century, if no quantum theory, no relative theory, it will be no atomic bomb. But Einstein, I’m convinced that, Einstein, he didn’t like to use his theory to make the bomb, you know. So I don’t think it’s appropriate for people to think that exchanges among scientists should have a problem unless some people were trying to achieve some political purpose. Up to today, the Chinese still see Wen Ho Lee as a very well-renowned scientist. |
华： | 就这样？ | W: | That’s all? |
江： | 就这样了。 | J: | That’s all. |
华： | 不是间谍？ | W: | Not a spy? |
江： | 当然了。 | J: | Of course. |
华： | 您显得很拘谨。这是今天这次对话的第一次，当我一提到李文和这名字的时候，我突然觉得这个话题会让您难堪，其他问题好像都不是问题。 | W: | You seem almost defensive. For the first time in this whole conversation when I raised the name of Wen Ho Lee, all of a sudden I sensed… this is a difficult subject for you, and none other have, I, have I felt that way. |
江： | 我没有什么好难堪的，这只是你的感觉。 | J: | This is not difficult to me. This is your feeling. |
华： | 好吧。 | W: | All right. |
江： | 可能是灯光的问题吧。 | J: | Maybe under the lights. |
华： | 可能真是灯光的问题。我之所以要问关于李文和的问题是因为我跟他偶遇，我发现他…… | W: | Conceivably under the lights. The reason I asked about Wen Ho Lee is because I met him, and found him… |
江： | 那你认为呢？ | J: | But what do you think? |
华： | 这种事轮不到我考虑。 | W: | I’m not supposed to think. |
江： | 你既然说李文和是间谍，那你到底觉不觉得他是中国间谍呢？ | J: | You say Wen Ho Lee’s a spy, Chinese spy, or not? |
华： | 我认不认为？ | W: | Do I think? |
江： | 没错。你需要好好考虑一下。 | J: | That’s right. You are to consider carefully. |
华： | 我在好好斟酌，因为我手里并没有太多信息，可能别的人更加了解。但是既然您问了我会回答的。 | W: | I am considering very carefully, because my, I don’t have all of the information perhaps that somebody else does. But you’ve asked, and I’ll answer. |
江： | 你掌握的消息也许比我知道的要多得多了。 | J: | You have the information may be much more than I. |
华： | 不见得。 | W: | No, well. |
江： | 我都是看报纸才知道的。 | J: | I’m only from the newspaper. |
华： | 是啊。 | W: | Yeah, well. |
江： | 不过我想…… | J: | But I think… |
华： | 我不…… | W: | I don’t, ah, ah… |
江： | 我想这是我第一次…… | J: | But I think first time I… |
华： | 您第一次难倒我了。 | W: | You’ve stumped me. |
江： | 不。这是我第一次发现原来你也很难回答这个问题。 | J: | No. first time I discover you face the difficult to answer this question. |
华： | 是的没错，没错，我也许不该回答这个问题。因为我的立场是一个理性客观的新闻工作者。再问多一个问题。他的辩护律师说李文和之所以成为被迫害的牺牲品仅仅是因为他是华裔美国人。您对他说的话有什么看法吗？ | W: | Yes, that’s true. That’s true. I probably shouldn’t answer. Because I’m dispassionate reporter, an objective reporter. One more question. His attorney says that Dr. Wen Ho Lee was single out for persecution simply because he was a Chinese-American. Does that make any sense to you? |
江： | 我想我已经就李文和一案把我想说的话都说了。我希望美国在处理这一类安检的时候不要带有种族主义的色彩，而是要遵从亚伯拉罕林肯所提倡的众生平等原则。 | J: | I think I’ve already said everything I want to say about the Wen Ho Lee Case. I hope the United States will not have any racial discrimination in handling such cases, in that instead it will follow the principal that all men are created equal, as advocated by Abraham Lincoln. |
华： | 您这样就很像一个共和党党员了。 | W: | That makes you a republican. |
江： | 我也不倾向于美国哪个特定党派的立场，因为我在美国两党都有许多朋友。不管如何，我终究是一名中国共产党员。 | J: | I don’t side with any individual political party in the United States because I have many friends in both parties. Anyway, I’m a member of Communist Party of China. |
华： | 中国的北戴河是不是相当于美国的戴维营？ | W: | Is this the Chinese equivalent of Camp David, Beidaihe? |
江： | 但是它是一个每年夏天我们的中央官员都会来这里的传统，但我们来这里度假的，我们还是会像在北京一样处理日常事务。只不过有时会去游泳。我的医生一直在建议我游泳，今早我就去游了一次，这是我今年夏天的第21次游泳。 | J: | It is a tradition to move our office here every summer. But in fact, we are not having a vacation here because we conduct our normal business as we do in Beijing, except here we may go for a swim. My doctor often suggests that I should siwm, I swam this morning for 21st time this summer. |
华： | 中国领导人都有有用的传统，毛泽东游，邓小平游，江泽民，谁会是你的接班人？他也会游泳吗？ | W: | It’s the tradition for Chinese leaders to swim, Mao Tsetung swam, Deng Xiaoping swam, Jiang Zemin…who’s gonna be your successor, and is he a swimmer? |
江： | 我想这也许只是一个巧合，不过游泳确实可以让你放松身心、振作精神。 | J: | That may be a coincidence that we all swam. But it is true that swimming makes you feel relaxed and refreshed. |
华： | 四年之前，您曾召集一批学者和历史学家在北戴河开会讨论有关中国道德滑坡的问题，这也是我们在西方所面临的问题。道德沦丧，传统价值观崩溃，还会愈演愈烈，不是吗？好的。这会不会是“致富光荣”造成的后果？邓小平说过：“致富光荣”。然后一夜之间，人们就……这些都发生在您开启你们中国特色资本主义的那一年。呃……会不会是这个样子，当我们人类得到更多的物质财富的时候，我们的内心就会变得更加骄奢淫逸？ | W: | Four years ago here in Beidaihe, you called together a group of scholars and historians to discuss the moral crisis in China, Problem that we face in the west as well. The death of moral, the disaggregation of traditional values. Still going on, isn’t it? Yes. Could this be a result of “To get rich is glorious”? Deng Xiaoping said, to get rich is glorious. And all of a sudden, people began… That’s when, that’s when you started your capitalism with your Chinese characteristics. Arr… Is it conceivable that the more material gains that we make as human beings, the more we become hedonists, permissive? |
江： | 你应该说对了时间点，大概是四年前吧。其实这个题目我们经常研究，不管哪一个国家，好几千年以来，特别是在中国，因为历史比较悠久，对于精神文明和道德诚信一直是非常重视的。邓小平的中国特色社会主义是要人们致富，确实是允许一部分地区、一部分人先富起来，但我们的目的是要达到共同富裕。“致富光荣”并不是资本主义。社会主义是要让全体人民富裕幸福，并建设一个富强的国家。我今年二月份在广东给他们讲，你们现在比起中国其他的地方，比西部的省市要富了，但是要“致富思源、富而思进”，不能坐享其成。我想一边物质丰富，一边道德滑坡，这是我们所有国家领导人都不愿意见到的。 | J: | You may be right about the timing, it was maybe 4 years ago, in fact, this question is a frequently discussed topic for us. China is a nation with a long history, and we have already attached great importance to spiritual civilization and moral integrity. And the theory of building socialism with Chinese characteristics, as advocated by Deng Xiaoping, does allow certain people in some areas to become rich first, but the ultimate objective is to achieve common prosperity. “To get rich is glorious” is not capitalism. Socialism is to make their country strong and prosperous. In February, I visited the part of the Guangdong Province, where I said to the people there that you are richer than some other parts of China, and you need to think about the source of your wealth that you should build up your prosperity and not to just sit back and enjoy what you have achieved. I think the last thing world leaders want to see is the scenario while you have material wealth on one hand, but moral decline on the other. |
华： | 但是，主席先生您自己就曾告诫过中国人民，您说“要抵制西方腐朽影响的侵蚀”。您说的“西方腐朽影响的侵蚀”具体指的是什么，主席先生？ | W: | But, you yourself, Mr. President, you yourself have urged people, I quote, “to filter out decadent western influences.” Which, which decadent western influences are you talking about, Mr. President? |
江： | 应该这么说，我恐怕不能就腐朽给出比你更清晰的答案，因为我毕竟没有在美国生活过。例如拉斯维加斯，我从来没在那里生活过，但我在电影里看到过那些场景。美国的领导人，包括原来的总统布什、卡特，也包括现在的总统克林顿，我们也都非常担心，青年一代的道德领域受到这种堕落道德观的影响。 | J: | I’m afraid I can’t give you a clearer answer about this decadence than you can, because I have not lived In the United States. For example, Las Vegas, I’ve never been there, but I’ve seen it on movie pictures. I and the American leaders including former president Bush and Carter, and the current president Clinton are worried about the influence of decadence on the morals of young people. |
华： | 您懂的，我肯定主席您知道几乎所有优秀的好莱坞电影都广为流传，也包括中国这里，但这貌似就成了您和你们党与中国人民之间众多的分歧之一。他们很喜欢这些电影，但你们却想把它们拒之门外。难道是因为中国人民都很腐朽么？ | W: | You know, I’m sure Mr. President that you know that, virtually every good Hollywood film is passed around, here in China. That sounded to be the one of the gaps between you and the Party, and the people of China. They welcome it. You want to keep them out. Is it because the Chinese people are decadent? |
江： | 我们并不抵制西方电影，事实上，我也很热衷于观赏西方电影。当我还是大学生的时候，我特别爱看《一曲难忘》《魂断蓝桥》《出水芙蓉》还有《青山翠谷》。西方哪部电影我没看过？ | J: | We don’t have any objections to western films. In fact, I’m also a viewer of the western movies. When I was a college student, I loved A Song to Remember, Waterloo Bridge, Bathing Beauty, and How Green Was My Valley. I’ve seen many American and European films. |
华： | 不过我们谈的是关于腐朽的问题，我们谈的是，您是否认为美国比中国更加腐朽？您是否觉得美国正在向中国出口腐朽？ | W: | But we are talking about decadence, we are talking, do you think America is more decadent, for instance, than China, and that we are exporting out decadence to you? |
江： | 呃，应该这么说，我们两国在历史传统、生活习惯、宗教信仰方面有很多差异，有些可能你们认为不是颓废的东西，但是到中国来会被认为颓废。所以我们必须有一定的选择性。比方说《泰坦尼克号》在中国很火，我也看过这部电影，我还看了《角斗士》和《阿甘正传》。电影里面声称角斗士描述了古罗马帝国的部分历史，这就与历史真相有所违背了。不过这些我们完全可以理解，这是艺术加工。 | J: | Well, about decadence. Our two countries may be different in terms of historical tradition, way of life and religious belief etc. So maybe there are things that you aren’t regarded as decadent in the United States, that are regarded as decadent in China. That’s why we have to be very selective. For instance, Titanic was a big hit in China, and I watched the film. I also saw Gladiator and Forrest Gump. For example, the movie called gladiator describes a part of history in the Rome Empire, there may be a slight deviation from the historical truth. But it is something we fully understand. It is an artistic creation. |
华： | 阿尔戈尔，乔治 W 布什，他们两人之一将会在您国家主席任期内成为美国总统。如果他们现在正在收看这个节目，您想就未来的中美关系对他们说些什么呢？这是很严肃的问题。 | W: | Al Gore, George W Bush, one of them is going to be president of the United States when you are still president of China. If they are watching right now, what would you want to sat to them about future US relationship with China? Serious questions. |
江： | 我刚才讲了，我在两党领导层和两党党员中都有许多朋友。 | J: | As I said to you earlier, I have a lot of good friends within the leadership of the two parties, and many members of two parties. |
华： | 那您是给双方阵营都给钱了么？ | W: | So you give money to both their campaigns? |
江： | 我们没有在这方面的……但是我，我这个意思不是说给钱。我是说无论什么人成为总统，他都会尽力推进中美之间的友好关系，因为这符合全世界的战略利益。有些人叫我不要在意候选人针对中国的不友好言论，因为一旦当选，他们就会变得更友好些。我只希望他说的是真的。 | J: | Are you just joking? We have never done such thing. I have read the campaign platforms of both parties and I believe whoever becomes president too will try to improve the friendly relations between China and the United States for this is in the strategic interest of the whole world. Someone asked me not to pay attention to unfriendly remarks candidates might make about China during the campaign because once elected, they will be friendly. I only hope that’s true. |
华： | 啊，比尔克林顿就是这么做的。他以前对中国说过丑话，等到他当选以后，对中国的态度转变相当大，不是吗？ | W: | Well, that’s what Bill Clinton did. He made unfriendly remarks about China, and after he was elected, he because quite different about China, didn’t he? |
江： | 你会知道这些事的。 | J: | You’ll know that. |
华： | 许多人相信，主席先生，您和你们的党与中国人民做了一笔交易。您给他们带来经济自由，社会自由，让他们安居乐业…… | W: | Many people believe, Mr. President, that you have made a deal, you and your party, with the people of China. You give them economic freedom, social freedom to work, live where and how they want. |
江： | 还有迁徙自由？ | J: | Traveling? |
华： | 作为交换，他们放弃了任何挑战共产党权威的权利。 | W: | And exchange, they give up any right to challenge the authority of the Communist Party. That’s about it, yes? |
江： | 很坦率地讲，我们双方在价值观念上确实还有很大的不同。美国人往往用你们的逻辑思维去推断其他国家的政治、其他国家的各种情况。你们美国的价值观强调的是公平交易，而我们的价值观里一直崇尚有一个很好的集体，相互协作。在你们的国家也有相互帮助，但是我们对于“交易”的理解跟你们西方不太一样。我们中国共产党的宗旨就是为人民服务，我们在为人民服务的过程中要取得人民的信任。新中国建立以后经过几十年的奋斗，也经过一段曲折的道路，但是邓小平确立的的开放政策非常成功，我们现在叫中国特色的社会主义。但是，西方往往希望我们变成资本主义，但如果全世界只有一种体系在运转，那我们这个世界就太单调了，我认为世界应该是丰富多彩的。我们要学习所有西方先进的思想、文化，包括科学技术、经济的经验。当然，这必须跟我国的国情相结合。正是由于遵循这个原则，我们这几十年取得了比较大的成绩。 | J: | Let me be frank with you, I think China and the United States differ greatly in terms of value. You Americans always use your own value and logic in making judgements about the specific situations or say political situation of other countries. Your American values emphasize deal making, but what we value most is a good collective where people support and assist each other. You also have mutual support in your country, but our perception of the word “deal” is different from your word in the west. The purpose and principal of the Communist Party are to serve the People, in this process, we win the trust and confidence of our people. Since the founding of the People’s Republic, we have travelled through twists and turns in our decades of developing the nation. The policy of reforming and opening-up, initiated by Deng Xiaoping, was a great success. So now, we are building a China, socialism with Chinese characteristics. But people in the west always hope that Chinese can become a capitalistic country. But with only one system around. Would the world be a very dull place? I still believe the world should be a diverse and colorful one. We want to learn from the western world everything advanced and progressive, including science and technology, and its experience in managing economy. Of course, this must be combined with specific conditions here. And it’s exactly because we have followed these principles that we have scored great achievement in the past few decades. |
华： | 接下来又是关于美国“穷兵黩武”的问题。如果美国继续部署导弹防御系统，正如克林顿总统所说的那样，中国是否会以研制更多的导弹来回应？ | W: | This goes, this following the business about the United States being “power man”. If the United States would go ahead with the missile system, the President Clinton has talked about, would China respond by building more missiles? |
江： | 我认为我们逐渐提升我们的国防能力是很正常的事情。 | J: | I think it’s just normal for China to gradually strengthen our capability for national defense. |
华： | 就这么简单吗？因为您对扩大导弹防御的可能性一直持激烈反对的态度。就是从这时您开始议论我们，开始在你们的报纸上说我们是“穷兵黩武”，“唯恐天下不乱”什么的。 | W: | That’s it? Because you complain bitterly about the possibility of our expanded missile defense by the United States. That’s when you began to talk about our being, somebody in your newspapers, began to talk about our being “power man”, and “not interested in peace” and so forth. |
江： | 我们反对你们搞国家导弹防御系统，反对搞战区导弹防御计划，我们也是很矛盾的。 | J: | We are opposed to national missile defense and theater missile defense plan. We are ambiguous about this. |
华： | 因为？ | W: | Because? |
江： | 因为这在世界上造成了一种气氛，使人们感觉到不是大家都在从事和平与发展的共同事业。中国考虑的就是我们绝不会使我们国家的安全利益受到损害。你们的导弹防御非常自然地会使我们感到这是一种威胁。 | J: | Because that would create an atmosphere where people cannot possibly engage in the effort to achieve the common task of peace and development. Our national security interest must not be impaired in any way. Your missile defense may naturally be perceived by people as a kind of threat. |
华： | 这哪里是威胁呢。 | W: | A threat against tomb. |
江： | 它对我们而言就是个威胁。举例来说，我们就很担忧台湾加入美日的导弹防御系统。 | J: | It is a threat against us. For instance, we are worried about the possibility of Taiwan being incorporated into a US-Japan missile defend system. |
华： | 您刚才讲，希望能改善美中关系，对吧？好的。那么您想怎样来改善与美国的关系呢，主席先生？ | W: | You’ve said that you want to improve relations with United States, yes? OK. What would you do to improve relations with the United States, Mr. President? |
江： | 我想在这一点上最主要的就是我们希望领导人之间要有一个登高望远的观点。我们要站得高才能望得远。事实上 ，1993年，我与克林顿见面时，我就讲了中国的诗句：“欲穷千里目，更上一层楼”，这就是登高望远。戈尔来的时候，我也跟他讲了我们宋朝宰相王安石的一首诗，“不畏浮云遮望眼，自缘身在最高层”。美国比起中国来说的个相对年轻得多的国家，因此你们的历史包袱也比较少。你们的人民也一贯表现出一种激发创新的精神。 | J: | Most importantly, the leaders of both countries should scale a great height and adopt a long term perspective. We need to stand high and look far. And in fact, when I was having my very first meeting with President Clinton in 1993, I quote a Chinese line, “to have a grand sight, you must scale a great height.” And when vice president Gore travelled to China, I also quoted some lines from the Song Dynasty. It goes, “I do not fear the floating clouds might block my view, because I am standing on the highest peak.” The United States is a much younger country compared with China, so may be you have fewer historical burdens. And your people demonstrate an innovate inspiration spirit. |
华： | 但在我看来，在我看来，你就是一位独裁者，一个极权主义者。 | W: | You are, you are, it seems to me, a dictator, and an authoritarian. |
江： | 不，但我……但我非常坦率地说，我是绝不会认同你说我是一名独裁者的观点的。 | J: | No, but I… Very frank speaking, I don’t agree with your point, I’m a dictator. |
华： | 我知道，我知道你不会承认的，但美国也有句古话叫做“如果走着像鸭子，叫着像鸭子，那么它就是只鸭子。” 独裁者就是那些会疯狂打压不管是新闻自由还是宗教自由或者私有经济的人，我觉得现在你有点朝这方面发展的倾向了。你就像最高权威的严父家长，有谁敢心怀忤逆，你就会收拾他。这就是一个政治上的独裁者。 | W: | I know you don’t. I know that you don’t. But there’s an old American phrase about it. “If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck and so forth it’s a duck.” A dictator is somebody who forcibly whether it’s free press or free religion or free private enterpris, now you’re beginning to come a little closer to that. Your father, knows best. And if you get in the way of father, father will take care of you. That’s what a dictator is in eccect politically. |
江： | 你……这是天方夜谭。中国的现实是我们确实接受中国共产党的领导，但是我们从法律上来讲，共产党只会提议，最后由人民代表大会来决定。 | J: | I think your way of describing what things are like in China is absurd as what Arabian nights may sound like. The reality in China is that we have leadership by the Communist Party. According to law, the Party only makes recommendations. Everything needs to be approved by the National People’s Congress. |
华： | 由人民代表大会来决定？ | W: | By the National People’s Congress? |
江： | 对。 | J: | Of course. |
华： | 完全由你们的党员把持的人大？ | W: | All from your members of the party? |
江： | 所有的国务院的领导和所有部长，他们的提名都需要人民代表大会通过的，日常事务由国务院负责。共产党内权力最高的是全国代表大会，代表大会选出中央委员会，中央委员会选出政治局。政治局有常委会，我是其中的一名常委。我们政治局常委每个星期都要开会，完全是在開放民主的气氛当中，如果没有全体成员的通过，我做不出任何决定。 | J: | All the ministers, their nomination are approved by the National People’s Congress, and also the leadership of the State Council. So the State Council looks after the day-to-day business of the country. The supreme power of the Communist Party lies with the National People’s Congress. And the National Congress chooses the Central Committee, and the Central Committee has a Politburo. The Politburo has a Standing Committee of which I am a member. So every week the Standing Committee members have a meeting. And the meeting is held in an open, democratic atmosphere, when one member of the Standing Committee has objection, I’ll not make a decision. |
华： | 听着，这是最后一个问题了，关于独裁。您知道的。当我看到那个手无寸铁的年轻人在天安门广场的坦克前面的图片，这对我而言，代表着中国的独裁，这是最好的象征。这个画面深深震撼了我对中国独裁的认识。 | W: | Look, one last question, dictatorship. You know what? When I see the picture of that one young man in front of the tank in Tiananmen Square. That to me means Chinese dictatorship, that’s a wonderful symbol. That hits, hits me in my heart about dictatorship in China. |
江： | 不需要翻译了，我知道你想说什么。我很愿意回答这个问题，因为ABC的芭芭拉沃尔特斯十年前就问过我同样的问题，而且给我看了那个照片。我说过，这个年轻人没有被逮捕，也没有受到伤害，因为坦克在他面前停下来，拒绝碾过他。芭芭拉也告诉我这个年轻人的名字，我可能忘了，但我问过在公共安全情报机关工作的负责人，他们利用尽可能多的关系网络来寻找这个年轻人，经过一个月的调查，我们确信这个年轻人并没有被捕。 | J: | Don’t need translation. I know what you said, ha ha. I’m very willing to answer these questions because Barbara Walters of BBC had asked me the same question about 10 years ago and gave me a photo. And I said this young man was not arrested and did not get hurt because the tank stopped in front of him and refused to crash him. And Barbara also gave me the name of who she believed was the young man, although I may have forgotten the specific name. but I ask people who are working with the public security agencies to use all of their networks to check out where was that young man, And after a month-long investigation, I can say for sure that this young man has not been arrested. |
华： | 你有没有一点钦佩他的勇气？ | W: | Did a part of you admire his courage？ |
江： | 但是我从未见过他，尽管我们试图找出他在哪里，不过我们确实知道他没有被捕。我们真不知道他现在到底在中国的哪里。但从图片上看，我相信他有他内心的想法，至于想法正不正确，那完全是另一回事，我不确定是谁或者什么事物影响了他…… | J: | In fact, I’ve never met this young man, although we try to search out where was that, but we do know that he was never arrested. I do not know where he lives now in China. But looking at the picture, I know he definitely has his own ideas, but whether his idea was a correct one, that’s entirely a different question. I cannot tell for sure who and what influences him. |
华： | 你还没有回答我的问题，主席先生。你，江泽民的内心是否会赞美钦佩他的勇气？ | W: | You have not answer the question, Mr. President. Did, did a part of Jiang Zemin, admire, admire his courage? |
江： | 我……因为我想你想让我说什么，但我想强调的是，我们充分尊重每一个人民自由表达愿望与诉求的权利，但我不会赞同与政府公然对抗。即便是在如此紧急的情况下，我们的人民军队还是表现出相当的理智与克制。 | J: | Well, I know what you are driving at, but what I want to emphasize is that we fully respect people’s rights to freely express their wishes and desires. But I do not favor any flagrant opposition for the government measures during an extortionary situation. The tank stopped, and did not run over the young man. Even under extortionary circumstances, our troops remain very rational and reasonable. |
华： | 看来您是不想再回答这个问题了，这我能理解。不过我并不是在说那辆坦克，我是在谈论那个人的内心，那个孤单的年轻人，和他的勇气。那个年轻人孑然一人站在……以前在上海，你也是一名抗议学生。我想江泽民您，如果能回到之前他们那个年纪的话，应该也会去做同样的事情。那大槪是您加入共产党之前的事情了吧。这才是我问这个问题的目的。 | W: | I’m not going to get answered, I understand. But I’m not talking about the tank, I’m talking that man’s heart, that man’s courage. That man, that lonely man, standing against that… You were a student protestor, like a Shanghainese. I can see that perhaps you, Jiang Zemin, would have done the same thing at that time before, that was before you joined the Communist Party. That’s, that’s what I’m asking. |
江： | 1943年的时候我还在南京上大学，那时候日本人已经强占了包括南京在内的许多中国领土，日本人希望让中国人对鸦片上瘾，所以我们自发组织了反鸦片运动，捣毁了许多鸦片药房。当我们遭遇到日军，他们拿着刺刀和步枪指向我们的时候，我们就唱了抗议歌曲《同学们大家起来保卫祖国》：♪同学们，大家起来，担负起天下的兴亡，听吧，满耳是大众的嗟伤，看吧，一年年国土的沦丧♪ | J: | In 1943, I was still in Nanjing, attending university. The Japanese occupied many parts of China, including Nanjing. The Japanese wanted the Chinese to get addicted to opium, so we launched an entire opium movement and smashed many opium houses. When we confronted the Japanese military who are pointing their bayonets and guns at us, we sang a protest song Arise My Fellow Classmates and Defend the Motherland. ♪ Arise! My fellow classmates! It’s time to shoulder your responsibility to defend our motherland! Take a sound of people’s bemoan! Have a view of this invaded country! ♪ |
华： | 您做过调查去了解中国人民都在想些什么吗？ | W: | Do you take opinion pools to find out what the Chinese people are thinking? |
江： | 我们选择一部分人做样本询问他们的意见，去了解他们的想法，而且我们也是在科学方法的基础上作出结论的。 | J: | We selected over the people a sample to ask their opinion, and we try to know what they are thinking. And also, we also make the conclusion based on scientific methods. |
华： | 不过你的调查方式和比尔克林顿也差不多。 | W: | But you poll just the way Bill Clinton polls. |
江： | 嗯，我也和一些人民群众保持密切的接触和联系。 | J: | Well, I also have some personal contacts and keep in personal touch with people. |
华： | 到今天为止，您是否还认为美国是故意轰炸了中国驻贝尔格莱德的使馆？ | W: | Do you today, Mr. President, do you still believe that the United States bombed your embassy in Belgrade on purpose? |
江： | 嗯，我只能反过来对你讲，美国是拥有高度技术的国家，以美国的顶尖科技，所有关于’误炸’的说法都难以让人信服。 | J: | Well, let me put it the other way around. The United States has state-of-the-art technology, so all the explanations that they have given us for what they call a mistaken bombing are absolutely unconvincing. |
华： | 您不相信……那美国到底为了什么要炸了你们驻贝尔格莱德的大使馆呢？ | W: | You don’t believe that. What, what would the United States get out of bombing your embassy in Belgrade? |
江： | 这对于我们来说也是一个问题。又是一个问题。你们的军事指挥系统又是那么先进，你们有先进的无线电通讯设备，而我们大使馆的标志又是那么清楚，不可能会漏掉，为什么最后还是会发生这样的事情，这仍是一个疑问。不过我们还是保留原有的态度，期待中美关系在新世纪能得到改善。 | J: | This for me is also a question. Also a question. Because you have such state-of-the-art technology, and sophistic military command system with advanced radio communication device, and also the identification marks for the Chinese embassy in Belgrade were too clear for people to miss. So why did this happen? It’s still a question. But we still adopted an attitude of looking forward to improving Chinese-US relation in the new century. |
华： | 我明白，不过那都是后话了。但是，但是您也应该明白，即便是中央情报局和五角大楼也是会犯错误的，犯些愚蠢的错误。这仅仅是误炸，美国人对此毫不怀疑，至少我这么认为。你们的飞机是不会去轰炸我们的大使馆的。你能想象吗？如果一家中国轰炸机炸了我们那个大使馆会怎么样？那会激怒美国，就像中国现在的感受一样。“为什么你们要炸我们的大使馆呢？”所以我们为何要炸你们的大使馆呢？我们难道要炸使馆来传递什么信息吗？为什么不直接说出来呢？说我们到底想干什么？这只是一次误炸，不是故意的。 | W: | I understand that. And that’s behind this. But, but, you know it’s possible for the CIA and the Pentagon to make mistakes, stupid mistakes. The American People, the American people have no doubt, no doubt in their mind, I think, that this was simply a mistake. Your planes would not bomb one of our embassies. Can you imagine? If a Chinese plane bomb one of our embassies? That will be heavily paid off America, as there was heavily paid in China. But I… Why would you want to bomb our embassy? Why would we bomb your embassy? What message are we sending? I bombed your Chinese embassy. Why not you just say? You know something? It was, it was a mistake, it was an accident. |
江： | 就是你们克林顿讲过，事件发生过后，在电话中已经好多次对我表达他的歉意。但是我告诉他：当时，贝尔格莱德的使馆被炸以后，我们12亿人奋起怒吼。我告诉你们的总统，虽然我们人口这么多，但是我们人的生命、每个人的生命还是非常宝贵的，有3个人牺牲了，我还对他讲，几百年你们有合理的解释，想要凭此来引导12亿多民众怒吼的情绪引导到一个理智的轨道上去也不是一件容易的事。既然你代表美国人民，而我代表中国人民，那我们在这个问题上是无法取得完全共识的。 | J: | After the incident took place, President Clinton call me on the telephone several times explaining his apology to me. And I said to him that after the bombing in Belgrade of the Chinese embassy, the 1,200,000,000 Chinese people, they all stood up in an angry raw against the incident. And I said to the president, to your president, though we have a very large population, we still highly cherish each and every Chinese life, which we believe, is all too, too precious. We lost 3 lives in that bombing. And I said to him, it’s not easy to guide the feelings of 1,200,000,000 angry people towards sensibility in good reason. And since you represent Americans, just as I represent Chinese, it would be impossible for us to reach total agreement on this issue. |
华： | 到2003年，总统先生，您将会结束你的任期，没错吧？ | W: | In 2003, Mr. President, you are through with this term of office, yes? |
江： | 没错啊。我的国家主席任期将在2003年结束，党总书记任期在2002年结束。 | J: | That’s right. My term for the president will end in 2003, and for General Secretary in 2002. |
华： | 就是说到那时候您会放弃现在的三个职位吗？ | W: | 2002, 2003, are you going to, you intend to give up any of your three posts? |
江： | 你看，你问了一个又敏感又棘手的问题。今天在这里我无法明确的回答你……因为这取决于我们的民主体制。这一切都要交由全体中国人民和全党的同志来一起决定。无论如何，我们必须首先确保这个拥有12亿人口的大国权力交接能够平稳过渡。我相信这次采访将会极大地推动我们两国人民之间的友谊与相互理解。我说完了。 | J: | Oh, you ask very sharp tough questions. Well, I’m afraid I can’t give you a definite answer today at this moment, because what will happen will be decided through our democratic system. It all depends on what entire Chinese people and what entire membership of the COC will say. Anyway, we have to make sure that the stability is maintained in such a big country with 1,200,000,000 population. I’m convinced that this interview will be further promoting the friendship and mutual understanding between our two peoples. That is all. |
华： | 您这样认为吗？ | W: | You believe that? |
江： | 没错。我相信，确信无疑。 | J: | That’s right. I’m convinced that. I trust it. |
华： | 你们很向往美国？ | W: | You admire America? |
江： | 没错。 | J: | That’s right. |
华： | 你们希望与美国交朋友？ | W: | And you want to be friends? |
江： | 我真心希望能推动我们中美两国人民之间的相互理解。 | J: | |
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